Other than the fact that these are from two seperate anime...

In Voltron, there are a lot of things that were never made clear on this end. How are these two related even though they are completely different beings? Or if they are similar, what could have caused the difference?

Could one have conquered the other? Mutual alliance?

Which side do you think has more power and likely to won in a civil war?

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Which side do you think has more power and likely to won in a civil war?

I'd say the Drules as they have a much, much bigger armada than Zarkon does.

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Originally posted by ViceroyThrok:
Other than the fact that these are from two seperate anime...

In Voltron, there are a lot of things that were never made clear on this end. How are these two related even though they are completely different beings? Or if they are similar, what could have caused the difference?

The Real-World Explanation™:

Very similar to Harmony Gold's merging of three separate, unrelated Japanese series to create Robotech, World Events likewise edited together two totally different animé into one single "universe," with sudden, new, hitherto-nonexistent connections between their repsective characters and scenaria. Species with somewhat similar physical appearances (the Drules and the various races populating Zarkon's empire) became related overnight for creative reasons, not unlike the whole-cloth connections made between the Robotech Masters, the Zentraedi, and the Invid races that emerged when that show was stitched together.

In-universe, however, we get several scenes in both series (VV and LV) establishing beyond a shadow of a doubt that Zarkon's empire was indeed related to that of the Drules, as seen in the Vehicle Voltron episodes -- Zarkon was apparently at one time a vassal of some sort under the Drule Emperor, and broke away to forge his own empire in another part of the universe.

This was an especially shrewd move to make on the part of the World Events producers, giving us that absolute confirmation of Zarkon's former affiliation with the Drule Empire, when they could have simply let such a subtle, yet important detail slide. The recent comics elaborated on his rise in much greater, bloody detail (the terrific "Lowman" arc by Mark Waid), but in that version of the story, Zarkon’s domain was still a part of the Drule Empire (its Ninth Kingdom), compared to his virtual breakaway-outlaw status in the original animé series.

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Originally posted by ViceroyThrok:
Could one have conquered the other? Mutual alliance?

Which side do you think has more power and likely to won in a civil war?

I totally have to concur with SGB's assessment, here. Zarkon's fleets are, perhaps by necessity, strategically centered upon a slightly smaller sphere of influence within the Far Universe than the Drule Empire in the Near -- we rarely ever see Lion Voltron journeying out of proximity to Arus to deal with a problem far distant from their region of the universe, as most of Zarkon’s efforts were concentrated against that one single planet following LV’s reactivation.

Prior to this, evidence from the series suggests that the Doom forces were indeed pursuing a fairly potent plan of conquest throughout the greater Far Universe, but looking at the episodes strongly imputes that with Voltron suddenly back in the picture -- and on Zarkon’s front doorstep, no less -- his plans were abruptly forced to undergo a rethink. More strategic resources would've likely been re-allocated back towards his home system(s) to act as a deterrent against the revitalized Arusian threat.

Dialogue in the first episode seems to imply that Zarkon’s military had scored some staggering victories in the Far Universe up to that moment (with the Galaxy Alliance seemingly preoccupied dealing with the Drule threat in the Near Universe), but the overall scope of the Lion Voltron series never reaches the sheer scale that we see time and time again in the Vehicle Voltron episodes. The Drules are able to field fleet after fleet against the Alliance on multiple fronts in multiple systems and sectors, but Zarkon’s total capital ship deployment seems to be much more of a home defense force by comparison, and relegated to action within a smaller, more finite number of sectors overall.

Which, really, is logistically and strategically consistent with his status as a "renegade" Drule warlord -- during his great schism, he likely wouldn’t have been able to commandeer much more than those forces immediately loyal to him anyhow, and it’s also clear that he favored a very different style of cap-ship design than the rest of the Drules (again, refer to The Real-World Explanation™ for that one).

Getting back to your original question (...god, this answer grew long-winded, didn’t it?), I would have to give the overall steel-cage-deathmatch edge to the "legitimate" Drule Empire over Zarkon...they seem to have an even tactical advantage, Robeast-for-Robeast, but when the Drules’ greater fleet capabilities are tallied up and added in, it’s really no contest. Zarkon evidently took with him the secret of the Drules' Robeast-demicronization technology (or, more intriguingly...was it the Drules who originally received it from *Haggar*?), but the ship-to-ship ratio falls squarely with the Drules.

I agree with the view you just pointed out

However
Haggar seems to be the wild card. How strong is her magic? If the Drule forces are stronger, how did they pit against Haggar's magic?

One thing that does strike me is how organized both sides are in comparison. The Drules are strictly military with a clear and distinct command chain (despite the ever growing number of Drule commanders on my list).
Zarkon and the Doominites seem to have a less rigid command structure. Zarkon has control, but the results vary greatly as to how his orders are carried out. This tends to turn the situation chaotic.

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Originally posted by ViceroyThrok:
I agree with the view you just pointed out

However
Haggar seems to be the wild card. How strong is her magic? If the Drule forces are stronger, how did they pit against Haggar's magic?

Absolutely, and it's rather clear that the Drules themselves seem to almost completely eschew the use of "magic" in their operations in favor of pure technological development, as opposed to Zarkon's very heavy dependency on the Haggar-crutch time and again. On some occasions, we glimpse the Robeast-micronization process taking place involving hardware instead of Haggar's "craft" (the ray-cannon which seems to be a standard emplacement on most of Zarkon's capital ships, et al), but more often than not, it's Haggar's intervention which allows the resizing (and even mutational) processes to proceed.

Now, the big question here is, did Zarkon take what the other Drules had already developed as a procedure and gave it over to Haggar for magical refinement? Or, the opposite -- might the Drules have used what was almost magical in nature and "sanitized" to the point where any "mundane" military commander in the field could understand and manipulate the process to their specific requirements? I'd almost go with the former scenario, since it stands to reason that the Drules -- if push came to shove -- could always have simply *grown* augmented Robeasts via genetic manipulation, sans any magical participation whatsoever, if they absolutely had to, and the rules and laws of Haggar's thaumaturgy aren't all that well-defined enough anyhow to make a clear call on this one.

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Originally posted by ViceroyThrok:One thing that does strike me is how organized both sides are in comparison. The Drules are strictly military with a clear and distinct command chain (despite the ever growing number of Drule commanders on my list).
Zarkon and the Doominites seem to have a less rigid command structure. Zarkon has control, but the results vary greatly as to how his orders are carried out. This tends to turn the situation chaotic.

Yup, and Emperor Zeppo had clearly delegated much authority -- both civil and military -- downwards through the chain of command to his field officers. Compare this state of affairs to Zarkon's far more absolutist, totalitarian "management" style -- very hands-on with his military commanders, personally appointing, outlining, and even shooting down campaigns as the case may be; a ruler in the true Thomas Hobbesian definition of the Divine Right of Kings (or whatever the Drule philosophical equivalent was), but also in several ways exhibiting some of Jacques-Benigne Bossuet's traits of post-Enlightement absolutism. Not that the Drule Emperor was exempt from this, either -- the guy was flushing his own world down the toilet, and ultimately proved totally unreceptive to the input of those beneath him (how life imitates art, sometimes...).

The Drule command hierarchy was clearly suffering from a swollen, bloated bureaucracy, with dozens of redundant leaders throughout the infrastructure, which might have been one chief reason behind Zarkon’s own departure (his lust for blood and plunder notwithstanding, obviously).

Something I would've added to my previous posting had I not forgotten it, was some dialogue from Lion Voltron episode #22 or #23 -- we see Zarkon berating Lotor concerning his recent spate of failures up to that point, and the king mentions that "[He] is losing the respect of the systems of the Drule Empire," thanks to his son (or words to that effect).

This adds another very interesting wrinkle to this thread's topic, in that it seems that Zarkon -- roughly halfway or so through the LV series's chronology -- was still in some ways very beholden to public and diplomatic sentiment, and his concern over his standing in the eyes of the Drule Empire (which he nominally split from) is quite telling. It might be that the Doom regime was still in some small ways economically or militarily connected to the that of the rest of his fellow Drules...which makes a rough kind of sense when you think about it, insofar that he'd almost certainly have among his subjects many, many ethnic former Drule nationals, and their goodwill was likely one of the things keeping his empire afloat. How Zarkon comported himself in front of the other Drules would've gauged their degree of support at any given time. In one of the later LV episodes (#47), we see the Drule leaders discussing Zarkon, and it's revealed that his independence from their empire has afforded him enough leeway to do what he wants without any help from them up to that point in time...but in that very same episode, he also ends up requesting a Drule fleet to assist him in laying siege to Arus.

Also, as a corollary to what I was saying earlier about the size and disposition of Zarkon's fleets -- also in that very same episode! -- it's made quite clear that Galaxy Garrison considers Zarkon a major threat even some 50 or so stories into the series, and despite all the victories the Lion Voltron force has achieved over him. In fact (going from the tape I just popped in), the war in the Denubian Galaxy had actually escalated during that time, with Allura being forced to convene an "Atlantic Conference"-type of summit meeting amongst the various remaining free powers in her galaxy in order to finally forge something of a working coalition against Zarkon’s empire.

Having just watched that episode once again, it’s apparent that some of what I said earlier about the scope of Zarkon’s operations was slightly off; given that the bulk of the LV series concentrates upon Arus and its surrounding sectors almost exclusively, we’re led to believe that the Doom empire’s activities (and Zarkon’s purported renegade status) would by necessity connote an extremely truncated storytelling scope. Despite what we see repeatedly in the LV series, unlike the VV series' galaxy-spanning nature, Zarkon’s forces were quite effective -- brutally so -- in subjugating the larger plane of the Denubian galaxy, and in efficiently short order, to boot. Much of what we were seeing in the animation was only the proverbial tip of the iceberg, with the other 90% (or whatever) of Zarkon’s campaigns occurring offscreen simultanously/concomitantly.


(...Jeez, think I should just, like, write a book or something on this whole damn thing, and get it all out of my system at once. )

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Originally posted by The Bandsaw Vigilante:
(...Jeez, think I should just, like, write a book or something on this whole damn thing, and get it all out of my system at once. )

Hmm, A "War and Peace" length book on the Drule Empire(s).

In a way, it's good I'm getting these questions out then. Maybe WEP will see this and use it to fill in some holes?

I'm loving this discussion. This is the kind of depth I'm looking for in discussing the VOLTRON universe. WEP might not have thought too hard about these issues while producing the series for public consumption, but what they did provide was enough to support the development of back story such as this.

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I totally have to concur with SGB's assessment, here. Zarkon's fleets are, perhaps by necessity, strategically centered upon a slightly smaller sphere of influence within the Far Universe than the Drule Empire in the Near -- we rarely ever see Lion Voltron journeying out of proximity to Arus to deal with a problem far distant from their region of the universe, as the lion’s share (pardon pun) of Zarkon’s efforts were concentrated against that one single planet following LV’s reactivation.

Not true, in Voltron, the team had to go to different worlds to save the people Zarkon were enslaving and mistreating, and also to stop weapons Zarkon was creating on other planets (the Pulsar cannon). The series focused on Arus, but Voltron did go to other worlds (Pollux, the world with King Taybor, the world with King Mag, Balto, the planet with the Pulsar Cannon, the planet where Voltron vs. Voltron occured, etc.). Your points are well made though.

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Originally posted by BlazingSword23:

quote:

I totally have to concur with SGB's assessment, here. Zarkon's fleets are, perhaps by necessity, strategically centered upon a slightly smaller sphere of influence within the Far Universe than the Drule Empire in the Near -- we rarely ever see Lion Voltron journeying out of proximity to Arus to deal with a problem far distant from their region of the universe, as the lion’s share (pardon pun) of Zarkon’s efforts were concentrated against that one single planet following LV’s reactivation.

Not true, in Voltron, the team had to go to different worlds to save the people Zarkon were enslaving and mistreating, and also to stop weapons Zarkon was creating on other planets (the Pulsar cannon). The series focused on Arus, but Voltron did go to other worlds (Pollux, the world with King Taybor, the world with King Mag, Balto, the planet with the Pulsar Cannon, the planet where Voltron vs. Voltron occured, etc.). Your points are well made though.

The planets that Lion Voltron visited seemed fairly local from the Arusian perspective. They never had to use the Castle of Lions in its starship configuration to get to any of those planets (Voltron's own spaceflight capabilities were able to handle it). The one time that the Lion Voltron Force had to rely on the Castle ship for transport was the time that it went to team up with the Vehicle Voltron Force on Planet Acura. Earth and the worlds that the Explorer visited were much farther away from Arus than those planets that Lion Voltron actually visited.

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Originally posted by Buried Alien:
I'm loving this discussion. This is the kind of depth I'm looking for in discussing the VOLTRON universe. WEP might not have thought too hard about these issues while producing the series for public consumption, but what they did provide was enough to support the development of back story such as this.

Totally. And yet they managed to infuse the show with just enough implication to fuel major discussions like these, even if they weren’t exactly aiming for Turgenyevian levels of sophistication at the time. That said, though -- there’s more than enough there to give some major texture to the two storylines, and which creates a multi-layered onion that might not be completely apparent on the first viewing. Most of what we’ve discussed to date comes sub rosa, between the lines of the dialogue, the visual and temporal cues that are given in the show; it’s like piecing together a mosaic from isolated tiles that -- on the surface, at least -- don’t seem to hold together all that coherently well. Yet they do, and when you re-assemble them in large quantity and examine what lies between those pieces, the connections are both sublime and even damn near elegant -- especially for a show originally adapted for the so-called "kiddie" marketplace.

What’s there actually holds up to internal logic and scrutiny, unlike many other shows. It’s absolutely solid. Using what’s already there to reconstruct the likely Voltron backstory, the temporal data-cues and other points of reference, doesn’t require any contorted mental gymnastics or "forced" logical reasoning to develop a probable rationale behind why Events A, B, and C happened the way they did in the Lion series, and why these connect to Events D, E, and F over here in the Vehicle Voltron series. It’s that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, and swinging "Occam's Razor" does a wonderful job of cutting right through much of the speculative underbrush.

True, you have to more or less view both series in tandem for the greater "picture" to reveal itself -- and I’d argue that VV does the better job of laying out the true scope of the war than LV -- but when you do, it’s marvelous.

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Originally posted by BlazingSword23:

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I totally have to concur with SGB's assessment, here. Zarkon's fleets are, perhaps by necessity, strategically centered upon a slightly smaller sphere of influence within the Far Universe than the Drule Empire in the Near -- we rarely ever see Lion Voltron journeying out of proximity to Arus to deal with a problem far distant from their region of the universe, as the lion’s share (pardon pun) of Zarkon’s efforts were concentrated against that one single planet following LV’s reactivation.

Not true, in Voltron, the team had to go to different worlds to save the people Zarkon were enslaving and mistreating, and also to stop weapons Zarkon was creating on other planets (the Pulsar cannon). The series focused on Arus, but Voltron did go to other worlds (Pollux, the world with King Taybor, the world with King Mag, Balto, the planet with the Pulsar Cannon, the planet where Voltron vs. Voltron occured, etc.). Your points are well made though.

Thank you, but what I meant there was that the Lion Force crew did indeed have to transit between different worlds of the galaxy in order to fight Zarkon -- it's simply that the vibe from the series (a few "distant" examples like Balto notwithstanding) is that these were much closer to Arus's doorstep than the territory the Vehicle Voltron crew covered (proximate to Earth on the other side of the universe). Interestingly, Pollux was clearly located in the same stellar system as Arus itself, given several major factors -- the naked-eye visibility of Arus from Pollux, with what seems to be a rather large ecliptic longitude; the political backstory of the two worlds being "sister planets," et al.

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Originally posted by Buried Alien:
The planets that Lion Voltron visited seemed fairly local from the Arusian perspective. They never had to use the Castle of Lions in its starship configuration to get to any of those planets (Voltron's own spaceflight capabilities were able to handle it). The one time that the Lion Voltron Force had to rely on the Castle ship for transport was the time that it went to team up with the Vehicle Voltron Force on Planet Acura. Earth and the worlds that the Explorer visited were much farther away from Arus than those planets that Lion Voltron actually visited.

Exactly. That’s another major point I hadn’t thought of -- the fact that the Lion Voltron force more or less required the added conveyance-power of the Castle of Lions (longer-range hyperdrive than the lions, probably?) to reach Acura, which was situated an extreme distance away (on the "border" of the Near and Far Universes, according to the animation). It’s clear from the show that the various worlds conquered by Zarkon were extremely well known to him, and likely existed within his stellar neighborhood (in the Denubian Galaxy, per the dialogue), and it would’ve been strategically impossible to conquer *and* hold onto worlds an extraordinarily huge distance away -- especially not when there are no fewer than two Voltrons active and engaged in major combat operations against you.

He clearly would’ve played his campaigns closer to the vest after LV’s reactivation, seeking to take only those worlds which he stood a solid chance of defending with his fleets and Robeasts, as opposed to far-flung worlds containing little more than a token bulwark against the local populations, and to which sending reinforcements of any major stature would’ve been a hit-and-miss proposition by that point.

From what I remember off the top of my head...

All of the planets that both Lion and Vehicle Voltron went to were in thier own galaxies (from what I assume) It just seems (as the series continues for each) that the Explorer and VV travel more than LV. The focus is different. LV is out to defend Arus and it's allies. VV is out to help the Explorer find and research new worlds as well as fight the Imperial Drules along the way. VV also ends up rescuing the Drules from their own planet's destruction.

So VV wore three hats. Defender, Explorer, and Rescuer.

But back to the topic, I think that because the base of the story moves, so does the perspective.

Another good discussion

Don't forget that in Yurak Gets His Pink Slip, when Lotor makes his debut, he's just come back from missions spear-heading the take over of other planets, if I remember right. Of course, this is early in the show, and Lotor is likely called back because Yurak has failed to prevent then subdue Voltron as a threat. So this might be the pivotal point where Zarkon's focus changes from take-over of the immediate vacinity, to quashing the rebellion on Arus once and for all.

What I always wondered was how the death of planet Drule would affect Zarkon and Doom. I know the VV series left it open, if you're not looking at The End of Hazar's World as the last ep anyway, and purported that Zeppo and his crew took over the new planet - so theoretically, the VV crew's work wasn't done. However, if you go by Hazar's World being the final ep, their conflict is over, the bad Drules ousted, and peace pretty well made between the what's left of the Drule Empire and the Alliace. I would think that this would get Zarkon's hackles up a bit and make him wonder if the Explorer would be deployed to help LV after they complete their original mission to find a new world for their own people.

Perhaps he'd be forced to try to nip that threat in the bud? Perhaps he'd want Hazar's head on a platter for the "treason" of aligning himself with the enemy. Hmmm.

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Originally posted by Purrsia:
I know the VV series left it open, if you're not looking at The End of Hazar's World as the last ep anyway, and purported that Zeppo and his crew took over the new planet - so theoretically, the VV crew's work wasn't done. However, if you go by Hazar's World being the final ep, their conflict is over, the bad Drules ousted, and peace pretty well made between the what's left of the Drule Empire and the Alliace.

Why would one not look at "The End Of Hazar's World" as being the final ep when it IS the final ep?

It didn't air that way (as a few sites that list by-air-date ep lists will also say) originally, and if you look at a particular transcript of an ep that I have on my site, there's no way it can go anywhere but AFTER that episode due to the things they reference in the dialogue. Yes, "End" matches dxv's last ep, but my best guess is WEP wanted to leave the series open in case there was to be an S2 for VV. So I list it as the last ep in my guide, rather than "End". I'm rebelious And it just makes more sense to me. Also, I'm not the only one in the fan base who's considered this, so yes - some people would debate it.

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Originally posted by Purrsia:
Another good discussion

Don't forget that in Yurak Gets His Pink Slip, when Lotor makes his debut, he's just come back from missions spear-heading the take over of other planets, if I remember right. Of course, this is early in the show, and Lotor is likely called back because Yurak has failed to prevent then subdue Voltron as a threat. So this might be the pivotal point where Zarkon's focus changes from take-over of the immediate vacinity, to quashing the rebellion on Arus once and for all.

That seems to be the insinuation from the episode (not to mention all the episodes leading up to it) -- Lotor is either summonsed back directly from his campaigns, or hears through the usual grapevine channels about the Arusian Voltron’s recent successes, cuts his own conquests short, and heads back to his father’s kingdom for a taste of some sweet, sweet combat against Voltron.

Also, as you mention, it would seem logical that Zarkon himself would at this point center most of his efforts on permanently neutralizing LV -- double-or-nothing -- to give him the breathing-room he needs to resume his earlier program of galactic enslavement. Fifteen or so episodes in, Lion Voltron was clearly the biggest threat to his plans -- he couldn’t just half-ass it any longer, beating around the bush with the whole Arus situation -- and it’d track that he’d probably drop everything else on his plate in order to deal with this one specific "issue" (putting it mildly).

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Originally posted by Purrsia:
What I always wondered was how the death of planet Drule would affect Zarkon and Doom. I know the VV series left it open, if you're not looking at The End of Hazar's World as the last ep anyway, and purported that Zeppo and his crew took over the new planet - so theoretically, the VV crew's work wasn't done. However, if you go by Hazar's World being the final ep, their conflict is over, the bad Drules ousted, and peace pretty well made between the what's left of the Drule Empire and the Alliace. I would think that this would get Zarkon's hackles up a bit and make him wonder if the Explorer would be deployed to help LV after they complete their original mission to find a new world for their own people.

Perhaps he'd be forced to try to nip that threat in the bud? Perhaps he'd want Hazar's head on a platter for the "treason" of aligning himself with the enemy. Hmmm.

The big question is how Media Blasters will tackle this in the final VV DVD release -- whether they go by the "original" last episode as the final installment ("The End of Hazar’s World"), or stick "It Could Be a Long War" in that slot. It’s become a major trend in recent years for most studios/production companies to stick religiously to "original airdate" episode orders, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they use "Hazar’s World" as that last episode, adaptational incongruities to the contrary. I suppose we'll see. (As another example, consider the two R1 DVD releases of Star Trek: The Original Series -- the discs put out back in 1999 used the proper syndicated "stardate order," but the later 2003 season sets used the chronologically-incorrect 1966-69 "NBC order." Meh...whoever made that decision lacked the brains that God gave your average, retarded rock.)

Part of me quite likes the closure to the storyline that the original ending brings, with the Drules pacified and Vehicle Voltron (and, by extension, the Galaxy Alliance) freed up to concentrate on other major issues of importance. Despite the jaggedy fit having "It Could Be a Long War" as episode #46 causes, it can still work with a bit of handwavium. Though, I tend to agree that the World Events production team apparently originally planned for that ep to air last, but changed this at the last minute.

It’s not unlike my theory that the final five GoLion episodes actually make the second LV "season" work far better structurally and narratively by relocating them to the end of that particular run. Taking that theory one step further, it’d stand to reason that the Lion Force series concludes *before* the VV run (using that scheme), with the Explorer crew still on their mission as of the conclusion of LV’s "Final Victory" episode, and avoids the barfulous notion of having the so-called "Fake Planet Doom" storyline as LV’s original ending, to boot.